FI or RE

Financial Independence/Retire Early -- Learn How!
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Which is of more interest to you

Poll ended at Tue Aug 17, 2004 3:09 am

financial independence
16
84%
very early retirment
3
16%
can't decide/ equal
0
No votes
none of the above
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 19

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ataloss
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FI or RE

Post by ataloss » Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:10 am

It seems to me that boards vary in terms of interests. I thought that trying to find a better work environment might be a substitute for ER in some cases- not a popular idea on some boards as it turns out.

Retirement earlier than 65 is early in a sense but probably not hard to achieve for many, sub 55 retirement seems to be quite early and may require sacrifices and compromises.

Considering retirement before 55 as early....
Have fun.

Ataloss

peteyperson
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Re: FI or RE

Post by peteyperson » Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:35 am

I would actually disagree with this sentiment.

Retirement age seems fairly set at around 65 in many countries. Thus age 50-60 would be early retirement. Retirement in your 40s would be very early indeed.

My own thinking on this is that life enjoyment, mobility and health tend to go down dramatically the nearer you get to age 70. Retiring at 65 is therefore a bit of a lottery. You have to plan to need cash for many years but the odds of living to enjoy it ain't too great. On the other hand, being able to retire in your early 50s still leaves open some fun opportunities for travel, exploring new activities etc. I'm not saying life is over at seventy but I wouldn't want to bank on the upside!

I recall a grandfather character from drama "Once and Again". Retired around 65, enjoyed Florida for a handful of years and died of a heart attack. An interview with the character to camera discussing his life (which they showed after the scene where he passed away):

" What does anyone want? "

<pause>

" Time. Time to do what you want to do. " :)

I often think of that when considering what I would like to plan for.

Petey
ataloss wrote: It seems to me that boards vary in terms of interests. I thought that trying to find a better work environment might be a substitute for ER in some cases- not a popular idea on some boards as it turns out.

Retirement earlier than 65 is early in a sense but probably not hard to achieve for many, sub 55 retirement seems to be quite early and may require sacrifices and compromises.

Considering retirement before 55 as early....
Last edited by peteyperson on Sun Nov 30, 2003 8:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

MaiPenRai
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Post by MaiPenRai » Sun Nov 30, 2003 4:36 am

Isn't FI a precondition to ER?

I mean how you can one choose ER instead of FI since it implies having that state satisfied as well to enable ER?
Last edited by MaiPenRai on Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

raddr
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Re: FI or RE

Post by raddr » Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:02 am

peteyperson wrote:
My own thinking on this is that life enjoyment, mobility and health tend to go down dramatically the nearer you get to age 70. Retiring at 65 is therefore a bit of a lottery. You have to plan to need cash for many years but the odds of living to enjoy it ain't too great. On the other hand, being able to retire in your early 50s still leaves open some fun opportunities for travel, exploring new activities etc. I'm not saying life is over at seventy but I wouldn't want to bank on the upside!


Well said! I retired at age 47 in large part because I figured that I might only have another 20 years or so of really good active lifestyle ahead of me - maybe less if disaster strikes in the form of bad health. In my early 40's I kept asking myself if I wanted to spend my remaining 20 or so good years doing what someone else wanted me to do, on their schedule, or whether I wanted to do what I really enjoyed when I wanted. End of discussion with myself. :!::lol:

BTW, did you ever hear a man on his deathbed reflect on his life and say "I just wish I had spent more time at work and less time with my family doing the things I wanted to do"?

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Post by WiseNLucky » Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:06 am

Good thread!

I chose FI because I am one of those fortunate people who really likes his job. I would like to be FI so that I could choose to stop working any time I wanted to, or to get away from the health/economic lottery that might force me to stop working, but right now I have no urge to stop working.
WiseNLucky

I just wish everyone could step back and get less car and less house then they want, and realize they don't NEED more. -- NeuroFool

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karma
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Post by karma » Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:42 am

I wasn't sure how to vote because I think if I had enjoyed my job, I would have worked longer. After trying to find compatible work for a while, I decided to go ahead and retire. And, yes, you should be FI first :lol:

But having retired, I have no wish to go back to work anyway.

Does anyone know the breakout of already FIREd to those in pursuit?

karma

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ataloss
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Post by ataloss » Sun Nov 30, 2003 10:46 am

I think that FI before ER is a good idea but there was a person at REHP-TMF doing it the other way. I am more of a FI person, willing to continue working past the point where I could RE because:

1. I like working- much of the time.
2. Like the idea of being able to lower my withdrawal rate.
3. Want to minimize the healthcare cost uncertainty in the sub-65 period.
4. See some value to remaining technically proficient at my job as a hedge against poor future investment returns or increased demand for labor as the boomers retire.

One of the other FIRE boards has a strong ER tilt. People (like Wanderer) are thought to be odd if they work past the point of financial independence.
Does anyone know the breakout of already FIREd to those in pursuit?


ES does but like the number of females it is a secret :lol:
Have fun.

Ataloss

KenM
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Post by KenM » Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:02 pm

hi ataloss
Another of your frustratingly difficult polls :lol:

But I think FI must over-ride everything else ... even if one does not RE, for me, achieving FI certainly made a difference to my approach to employment and for some years now I've enjoyed work because I've kept on working more or less on my own terms - almost like a well paid hobby.

But FI can mean different things - I achieved a minimum FI in my mid 30s, not happy at work so seriously considered REing however it would have been a very frugal existence - but changed employment and didn't seriously consider REing again until early 50s. Then given an opportunity to change career direction so kept on happily working until now at 57 - contract finishes next year so will probably finally stop work - if I'm offered similar work I'd probably continue but I won't go looking for it - and, like karma, once I retire it's most unlikely I'll want to restart.

Looking back, I don't regret at all not REing earlier and looking at raddr's quote ...
"I just wish I had spent more time at work and less time with my family doing the things I wanted to do"?
... for me it's a matter of balance. I've been lucky enough to find work that has contributed to my own personal development over the years which has, I think, been a good influence on relationships and productive time spent with family and friends. But I've never been willing to commute more than half an hour to work, I've never been willing to work 10 to 12 hour days, I refuse to get overly stressed at work (getting stressed with teenage daughters is different :wink:) and I've always taken my full vacation entitlement - so my time with family hasn't suffered. My own view is generally in line with ataloss
I thought that trying to find a better work environment might be a substitute for ER in some cases


Interestingly, on normal retirement ages, the standard retirement age in many cases for jobs in Govt and major companies in many SE Asian countries is still 55 (although in recent years in some cases it might be extended to 60) ... and I don't think that this fixed early retirement age can be put down to a shorter life expectancy because average life expectancy is similar to or sometimes exceeds the US.

Also, (and I only get feedback from people in the UK so I don't know if it applies in the US), but isn't it difficult to work up until 65 these days - it seems to me that many Govt and company employers are pushing hard for employees to take early retirement???
KenM
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I -- I took the one less travelled by, And that has made all the difference.
--Robert Frost

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Post by wanderer » Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:41 pm

Interesting thread.

But I think FI must over-ride everything else ... even if one does not RE, for me, achieving FI certainly made a difference to my approach to employment and for some years now I've enjoyed work because I've kept on working more or less on my own terms - almost like a well paid hobby.

I think kenm and I (and ataloss, I think) are having similar experiences. I can see why raddr retired - very stressful, high risk to net worth occupation (litigation happy system). I would think being a physician, if you could strip away the nonsense, would be very fulfilling. Although i find researching financial and accounting stuff to be very interesting and lucrative, I view it as a means to an end - with a big enough pile, I can do some other things.

I also have a sense of frustration because very few people seem to want to step up to the demands of FI (they like the rewards, tho). I feel like I'm holding a jewel in my hand and they can't see it.

...

I've been lucky enough to find work that has contributed to my own personal development over the years which has, I think, been a good influence on relationships and productive time spent with family and friends. But I've never been willing to commute more than half an hour to work, I've never been willing to work 10 to 12 hour days, I refuse to get overly stressed at work (getting stressed with teenage daughters is different ) and I've always taken my full vacation entitlement - so my time with family hasn't suffered.

I agree - the work conditions are critical. I would be willing to work a 'hard' job (Big 4), in the event of a market collapse, for a brief spell, as there would be a number of highly lucrative benefits. I would try not to do this for at least another three years as the impact was so hard on our family.
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear

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ben
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Post by ben » Sun Nov 30, 2003 11:58 pm

FI for me! When that point is reached everything else is my OWN decision - and that is the freedom I want. I might continue what I do currently, I might quit and travel the world, or as Petey predicts; I might just hang at the pool with my sparkling new wireless laptop and post more or less relevant stuff here! 8)
Normal; to put on clothes bought for work, go to work in car bought to get to work needed to pay for the clothes, the car and the home left empty all day in order to afford to live in it...

bpp
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Post by bpp » Mon Dec 01, 2003 12:21 am

FI for me, too. I'm lucky enough to enjoy my job, and have no particular plans to try to retire early. On the other hand, it would certainly be nice not to have to depend on anyone else (like employer) for survival, even if I am still working. And to have a safe buffer against disaster.

Bpp

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Re: FI or RE

Post by peteyperson » Mon Dec 01, 2003 5:12 am

raddr wrote: Well said!


Thanks raddr. I seem to be taking a lot of flack from a number of people of late, so the kind word is most welcome. I'm actually considering either dialling back on the meant to be humourous comments or just dialling back on posting due to the negative comments I'm receiving.
raddr wrote: BTW, did you ever hear a man on his deathbed reflect on his life and say "I just wish I had spent more time at work and less time with my family doing the things I wanted to do"?


I think the hardest part will be getting to 50+ and perhaps reaching basic FIRE level of living essentials but nothing like new books, music, restaurants and vacations. When you reach that level you'll be working to save for the fun things that you enjoy in life bar day to day living. I think it will become ever more apparent that you are trading each additional day, week, month and year of extra work for a little nice thing here and something nice there.. never knowing whether you'll live long enough to enjoy it. One strategy perhaps when considering something like expansive travel is to budget a set lumpsum for the task rather than enough to fund lots of travel on an ongoing basis.

I think it may be harder to convince yourself to work more time than it was to put off spending now for freedom later. But you can probably be more informative there than I.

Petey

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JonnyM
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Post by JonnyM » Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:49 am

ataloss wrote: I think that FI before ER is a good idea but there was a person at REHP-TMF doing it the other way. I am more of a FI person, willing to continue working past the point where I could RE because:

1. I like working- much of the time.
2. Like the idea of being able to lower my withdrawal rate.
3. Want to minimize the healthcare cost uncertainty in the sub-65 period.
4. See some value to remaining technically proficient at my job as a hedge against poor future investment returns or increased demand for labor as the boomers retire.

One of the other FIRE boards has a strong ER tilt. People (like Wanderer) are thought to be odd if they work past the point of financial independence.
Does anyone know the breakout of already FIREd to those in pursuit?



I can't dispute Number 1. That is a very personal choice, and begs the question of why do you hang around with ER types if you actually '"like" to work. Personally, I'd rather be doing a host of less workish activities, but I digress (hehe implied, remember I'm new, you haven't got used to my very dry martini wit yet)

What if you could plan a career that took complete care of 2 thru 4. There are jobs that build safe retirement accounts that are not dependent on market trends, provide lifetime health care benefits, and have built in colas to hedge inflation.

Would you still "like" working? I'll admit I didn't choose my situation purposefuly 21 years ago, but is sure is shaping up nicely now...

Let's here it for DBP's in all their glory. 2%/55 Yah Baby!

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