a humble plea, FIRE fans

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wanderer
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a humble plea, FIRE fans

Post by wanderer »

Ladies(?) and gentlemen -

I think we will attract a far more eclectic, interesting, provocative, thoughtful, funner, more effective and creative crowd if we adhere to a ground rule or two. In particular, although poor board management elsewhere is a fact, imo, and regrettable, also imo, this place is an awfully good little garden and it is starting to cook. I would like to request that issues of board management that seem to plague other spots, be confined to that other spot (or perhaps the Town Center?)? Failing that, might I request that we confine such discussions to appropriately labeled threads?

I write this because I fear that new and extremely valuable posters might feel their efforts are being exploited to further personal agendas, however meritorious. Especially if it is a valuable poster's first post. Especially when he relates a variety of lessons (joy and sorrow re: a friend's life and death) that are bitter enough and are pretty raw emotional material to begin with. Especially when the post discusses reviewing priorities and when there exists a strong possibility that the message will be trivialized or dissipated, at least from the author's perspective, by its association with matters with which he may care little, disagree, or simply not wish to take issue now or in this setting.

In short, when someone "walks the plank", which I think 1HF did, I think we need to be super careful to reward him. Similarly, I think another spot's biggest problem is the inability to retain "malcontents," who possess particularly valuable insights but can only communicate them by "walking the plank" rejecting the orthodoxy openly and vigorously. i think this has compromised that site's value. I don't want that to happen here and i think we run that risk if we continue to make too many references or hash out issues related to that other place here. (I know: i am guilty, too. mea culpa. let's fix it and move on.)

In terms of the response to the 1HF post, I have heard the issues raised before (mostly elsewhere), and attribute it to understandable frustration on the author's part. The issue is not one of accuracy, imo, rather it is a matter of what is in the best interests of this board (encouraging high quality discussion on FIRE matters). Asides don't bother me that much (but may bother others, see "offer" below). but lenghty discussion on the board management issues of another spot are probably best left for that spot to sort out.

As mentioned previously, altho i might find it advantageous to look over there occasionally, i think i'd prefer just to grow this place. I do wish those who want to change the other place for the better all the best.

"Offer": If anyone will e-mail me off line, i will be happy to remove any offending verbiage/posts.

Hopefully this will be taken in the spirit in which it is offered - a humble request in the best interests of ALL involved (but mostly the "infidels" for whom i have a degree of affection).
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
hocus
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Post by hocus »

Hopefully this will be taken in the spirit in which it is offered - a humble request in the best interests of ALL involved.

Wanderer:

I have no problem with anything you say here, and I appreciate you coming forward and saying it. You handled the matter in exactly the right way.

I will not post here again until some later time when circumstances are different. It's a wonderful board, and you absolutely have all my best wishes.

You sometimes visit the other board. So if there comes a time when you see me say something over there that you would like me to comment on over here, send me an e-mail, and I will pay a visit.

Re the post on the OneHappy Fool thread, it was not my aim to "exploit" the thread. But it was an attempt to further an agenda. I don't think of it as a personal agenda; it is one that affects anyone interested in learning about FIRE. But I clearly have an agenda.

The reason for picking that thread to make that particular point is that the initial post was long. The hostility to long posts has been a big issue on the other board, and so that thread presented an opportuity to make the point. The audience was not so much people who post here as it was people who reside there but visit here to find out "the latest." This board has provided me a means of communicating with members of that community in ways that are not possible at the other board.

I have tried to be up front about my intentions here. It has not been my intent to deceive anyone about any of this. I think this is a great resource, and would like to participate on non-SWR questions if I had time. But I am way too tied up with other matters. I have the book to work on, and the work I do at the other board. I have limited my posting here to various aspects of the SWR/Other Board matter because I can justify putting time into that, which I consider a high priority project. I don't have time today to post here on other matters. I hope to at some other time, but not today.

My belief is that the single most important issue facing the Retire Early community today is freeing up the other board for on-topic posting. I believe that if that goal were achieved, it would benefit the Retire Early movement in many ways, one of which would be to provide a stream of great posters for this board. But that's just my view. I have zero desire to be an obstacle to other attempts to build this place up that others with other views are engaged in.

The people who post on this board are the most informed posters on FIRE on Planet Earth. The board is a treasure. I won't be posting, but I most certainly will be lurking.

The reason for me not posting is not some sort of anger at what you are saying here. I've tried to walk gingerly here because the issue at play has always been a background concern. I can't not post about the issue that I view as the single most important FIRE question before us today. It's just too important to me.

A logical solution is for me to post only at the other board, while continuing to learn from the great stuff posted here. I hope soon to be taking a break from posting at the other board too, but that's a separate matter.

I hope that you all know that I have learned important things from just about everyone who has put up a post here, and I do not forget people I have learned from. Some of you I will run into from time to time on the other board, the others I will talk to again when the other matter is resolved in some way and it seems appropriate for me to begin posting here again.

I hope that a few here maintain some contact with the Motley Fool board. I honestly believe that the natural way to work this thing out is to someday have the two boards working together. I see incredible power in that idea. I hope that it happens, but perhaps it is not in the cards. This place will be a powerful FIRE resource regardless.
wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

hocus -

i understand and you know i agree with virtually every assertion you have made (i repeated four of them [fallacious assertions] in a post on this topic the other day).

and i think i speak for most, and i know i speak for myself, when i say that your presence is very much desired and appreciated. so lurk or post, as you like (i'd selfishly prefer you to post).

can i still at least buy lunch? it may only be a hot dog - unless mr. market starts cooperating...
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
hocus
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Post by hocus »

I think i speak for most, and i know i speak for myself, when i say that your presence is very much desired and appreciated. so lurk or post, as you like (i'd selfishly prefer you to post).

I understand, Wanderer, and I appreciate the compliment. I wish that each day had 48 hours. I must make some progress on that other project or my babies are going to starve. And you know how strongly I feel about the REHP board management matter. When I get to the point where Project A is finished, and Project B is either declared a lost cause or a victory, then I would love to hang out here.

It's not my nature to get involved in something a little bit. I tend to stay out or jump in with seven feet all at once. So I really only have time for that one issue nowadays. I have a vision that compels me to work that matter to completion. But I know that many do not see it the same way, and I accept that they may be right. It could be that I am not thinking clearly. I don't want to mess up a good thing here to address a bad thing somewhere else.

Can i still at least buy lunch?

No. I very much want to have that lunch with you. That will be a chance to say things that can't be revealed on a public board. But I buy the lunch this time. And Mr. Market is of no concern. TIPS have been doing great!
wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

TIPS have been doing great!

show off! :wink:
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
raddr
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Post by raddr »

W,

As usual, you're the voice of reason. :idea:

I don't care if anyone crosslinks any of my NFB posts over at TMF if they find it to have substance or supports an argument that they are trying to make. I agree that a post of a personal nature shouldn't be crosslinked if it gives the appearance of supporting arguments or other nonintended motives.

hocus,

I hope that you'll reconsider you decision to "lurk" rather than post here. I'd particularly like to see some more posts like the classic "Coin Toss" post at TMF - one of the best I've ever seen at any board.

I appreciate your honesty in admitting having an "agenda" to pursue at TMF and I hope I can help you convince others of the follies of pursuing a very ill-conceived retirement strategy pushed by a board general who is at least wise enough not to follow it himself.

I know that you'd like me to come over there and mentioned at the REHP that it is the $30 dollars that keeps me from it. In fact, that has little to do with it. I plan to contribute at least that much or more to the NFB fund soon so that is not the issue. Frankly, the atmosphere at this board is much more agreeable and I will not go back to the TMF because of the massive number of distracting posts, socialist political posts by the board general and others, and general lack of knowledge and understanding about SWR issues by most of the disruptive posters. There are still some good folks over there but most post here now. The signal to noise ratio is much higher here. No one can dispute that. I will not go back to TMF even if they drop the fee.
hocus
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Post by hocus »

I plan to contribute at least that much or more to the NFB fund soon so that is not the issue.

I understand that it is the principle that matters for you and not the bucks. That was always obvious. I'm just teasing when I mention the $30. I'm sincere in being willing to do anything to get you back there, but I never had any illusions that it was the $30 that was the real problem.

I hope I can help you convince others....

You have been a tremendous help. You're not a "meatball," no matter what Galeno says.
wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

raddr is FAR to kind. me the voice of reason? heaven help us all! :wink:

i agree with raddr, we'd love to have you post, hocus. you are truly unique (in the best sense).

and i do think it's legit (others provide your thoughts, if you don't mind) for you to discuss some o fthe bizarre phenomena ("what possible legitimate reason would Poster Child say/do x?") and SWR technical matters (frankly, i don't know where else you will be able to get useful feedback). i do think not interspersing is helpful and i do think keeping board admin issues focused at their source would be best.

you are no hocusjones, baby, no matter what any cheap shot artist says.:wink:
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
hocus
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Post by hocus »

I do think it's legit (others provide your thoughts, if you don't mind) for you to discuss some o fthe bizarre phenomena ("what possible legitimate reason would Poster Child say/do x?") and SWR technical matters (frankly, i don't know where else you will be able to get useful feedback). i do think not interspersing is helpful and i do think keeping board admin issues focused at their source would be best.

If there is some arrangement that can be worked out that is not perceived as disruptive, that's OK with me. But it's complicated.

The entire safe withdrawal rate thing is not a primary concern of mine. The way this happened is that I was growing increasingly concerned re the direction of the board when wanderer was driven off about a year ago today. When that happened, I became alarmed. I determined that the medicine the board needed was more on-topic posting. When there are on-topic discussions, it unites the board. The politics stuff tears it apart.

I came up with the SWR thing as a solution to the personal attack problem. I needed something that would generate a lot of on-topic posting. The reality of SWRs fit the bill. It was a subject that had hardly been touched on at the board, and one that leads to dozens of interesting places. So I launched the May 13 post, not telling the board anything. I asked a question. The goal was to spark discussion.

The point here is that it is the saving of the REHP board that is my true concern. You tell me that if I post here for three months straight, I will have a one in a hundred chance of getting some of you to pay a visit to the other board, and I'll work it into my schedule. It's Priority Two in my Task List for my Life Project, so I need to fit it in.

But if it were not for my desire to get the REHP board on track, I would not have time to formulate posts on SWRs at all. Perhaps at some future time. But my two top priorities are eating up every hour that I have. SWRs is not a subject that I can afford to spend time on today unless it is serving my goal of building a bridge between this board and the other one.

I think my agenda is a good one for all concerned. There is no trickery involved in it. I want what's best for this board, and the creatiion of a bridge between the two is what I think is best. But if it makes people uncomfortable that I am pursuing that agenda, then it's not right for me to post here at this time.

I can go along with any sort of restrictions. I don't care about any of that stuff. But I don't want people thinking that I am OK with there being a bright line separating the two communities. For me it is one community, the community of people seeking financial independence early in life. Bridges are hard to build, but they pay huge long-term dividends. This is an infrastructure issue for me. I see it as being far more important than any content issue that we could possibly discuss (not that those are not important).

It doesn't bother me if no one agrees with me today. I am happy to keep pitching until they do. But if people are downright unconfortable with the idea that there is someone scheming to make this sort of thing happen, then the fit is not right at this time. I am scheming to make this thing happen. I obviously do not have all the pieces lined up yet. But I see the potential payoff for the Retire Early Movement (that's what I see it becoming) as huge. That's why I have invested so much in it already.

Anyway, that's where I am coming from. No hard feelings either way. There are other things I can try, and I'll just keep knocking on doors until one opens up.
ChocoKitty
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Re: a humble plea, FIRE fans

Post by ChocoKitty »

wanderer wrote: Asides don't bother me that much (but may bother others, see "offer" below). but lenghty discussion on the board management issues of another spot are probably best left for that spot to sort out.


I agree.

I personally am a Couch Potato investor and a fan of ElSupremo's, so that, combined with the FIRE aspects of this board, is why I'm here. I actually have a subscription to TMF until 2005, so I'll be there as well, but NOT on the REHP (little time or interest to wade through the muck there, and zero interest in the management of that board -- if it doesn't suit me, I don't read it anymore). For those who care, I am active on the food/cooking boards there as well as the MOOTFL board at TMF, so the SWR discussions and the calculations relating to that is not what I follow on TMF. I just do the Couch Potato thing and get on with my life. But I hope that my posting on this board will not be construed as a yea or nay with respect to the TMF boards. It's not an issue. I just read and post where I feel comfortable.

What I AM interested in is what wanderer calls "the softer side of RE" and all the permutations that may take. I've accepted the fact that I may never want to quit working in some form completely (believe it or not, journalism and writing fiction are two things I can see myself doing in my next life and am laying the groundwork for now). I look forward to seeing more discussions about that here.

This is not the first time I've seen "the battle of the boards." There is a food discussion board I participate in where I see exactly the same sort of thing. Glee when they "steal" posters from the other board, etc. IMHO, it doesn't add anything to the board's mission and takes away from the focus of the board (talking about food). Just like I'd rather talk about food there, I'd rather talk about RE, in whatever form it takes, and index funds here. Although with my investing style, there really isn't much to talk about (hey, I spent another day doing nothing to my portfolio.....zzzzzz....... :))

OK, back to work. Sorry for the ramble. :oops:
wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

choco -

i hope it doesn't sound like stealing. i confess that i do want the good folks, like yourself over here posting away. we have a solid number of those folks at this point but always want more, of course.

we also need more eyeballs and fresh, "naive" folks (like Craigg) to make this thing go. i think the "know-it-alls" (like me, ha!:wink:) get a lot out of the new perspectives and just having to rehash stuff sometimes throws things in a new light.

i get some of my best ideas from the totally off the wall, non technical types. you're sort of in that boat even though you have a technical profession. your question about watching the paint dry got me thinking about mental games we played almost naturally and that in turn led me to some ideas that are central to a bit of psychobabble called "flow psychology" (sort of a study of wellness and success versus the disease model which permeates so much of psychology) and some of the mental games that successful folks engage in. and i also drew some parallels between the mental games that had enabled us not to consume money stupidly and the mental gymnastics required to successfully lose and keep off 20 kg.

Another example is a poster who mentioned that he had a friend who lived in the phillipines and how cheap it was. didn't really think about it until i was casually talking with our philipino pool guy. I was talking about what it took to live and he assured me that i was waaay overestimating the COL there (in the RP). i checked out the hard to believe numbers he was quoting and found them pretty right on.

so, trust me, i find the softer side and the interrelationships and the more than one way to skin a cat thing veeery useful. i'd love to see a little more serendipity here. which means we need some more eyes.

and i do think we are getting there. we have 32 posters with 10 or more posts and 10 with 66 or more. Not a bad start for two months in. but still, too much me and not enuf lurkers, etc.

all in due time, inshaalah ("god willing" in Arabic - altho i think you're an atheist;-)).
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

probably another softer side thread on creativity is how you come up with, and more importantly implement, good new ideas for FIRE. for example, one of the most powerful ideas we had (overseas living) gestated for 20 years before becoming a reality and distilled two or three or four other main threads (overseas living [date originally identified - 1979], section 911 tax break [1991], working overseas [1996] university teaching [1999], public accountancy [1992], lifestyle concerns [1995], frugality [1980+]).

another softer thread would be on the skills requisite/desirable for potential FIREs. i read a book last summer (John Maynard Keynes: A personal biography) that analyzed John Maynard Keynes' fluidity of political-economic thought in light of his sexual preferences (keynes appear to have been homosexual or bisexual for long periods of his adolescence/young adulthood).

there was a focus on Keynes personal qualities and speculation on their source. For example, his "visionary imagination" (he produced "the economic consequences of the peace," "the general theory," emphasized demand side economics, fiat money, etc.). According to the author, Keynes had "a new synthetic vision," based on a "special experience." His mind was an especially fertile ground for "a recombination of old and new elements." He represented a "man who has gone away, who is of his culture, but has also served an apprenticeship in an alien world," and who has been "deeply touched by the alien," and "responded to conflicting views to a heightened degree."

Probably needless to say, I saw signifcant parallels with my own experiences and a developed found respect for my "jack-of-all trades," try almost anything nature (something which, in a former life, I viewed as a shortcoming). I have come to view my own flexibility of thought (synthetic approach, recombination of old and new, alien and native born, response to conflicting views) as critical to achieving FI quickly. I think some people have some of these traits. and a few have many of these traits but lack some critical detail. Very few had essentially the whole package. I was so blessed - tho for so long my "generalist" qualities seemed like a curse (to me, at least).

On a totally non-FIRE vein, listen to this quote from his diary at Versailles:

The crowd outside thinks that Germany is crushed forever. But the Germans will soon rise again. Europe is done for; England most of all countries. The war isn't over.... The evil will be worse because the hate will be dammed up in men's hearts...

something to think about these days, imo.

anyway, i ramble...
Last edited by wanderer on Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
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ElSupremo
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Post by ElSupremo »

Greetings raddr :)
I will not go back to TMF even if they drop the fee.


This has nothing to do with the fact I've put about a billion hours into this place, but I'm with you! :wink:
"The best things in life are FREE!"

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wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

I will not go back to TMF even if they drop the fee.

it IS NOT the $30. now i'm your problem, es.:wink:
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
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ElSupremo
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Post by ElSupremo »

Greetings wanderer :)
it IS NOT the $30. now i'm your problem, es


That's funny because that was the problem for myself and quite a few others on the index funds board. But I'll be honest, I think this is the best thing that could have happened. TMF has done us an enormous favor(In addition to all we learned there of course.) The options and flexibility we have now are incredible. This site, much like Vanguard in a way, is run by it's members who all fall under the overall general rules of the boards. Which are in place for the good of all and the betterment of the overall experience.

Your right on when you said it's just a matter of time. I have seen the future, and I like it! :wink:
"The best things in life are FREE!"

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wanderer
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Post by wanderer »

That's funny because that was the problem for myself and quite a few others on the index funds board. But I'll be honest, I think this is the best thing that could have happened. TMF has done us an enormous favor

the cost to me has always been the time. i don't begrudge the business the $$.

and i agree, much better here. thank you!

the stuff that irks me is the pointless destruction that we have witnessed at the re*p. but now we have this, so what's to irk? :wink:
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
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