Of tainted history, data torture, and faux SWR's

Financial Independence/Retire Early -- Learn How!
wanderer
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Location: anytown, usa

Post by wanderer »

we're very fortunate to be here, es. for that i thank you. as you can tell, although i am mostly just posting links and brief observations, there was a lot of "communing" and pent up posting. not a slight on anyone since i already knew of their level of insight, i must admit, jwr, has been a godsend.

also, i really appreciate the presence of several re*p "moderates" (andrew, stubble, dagrims, choko, et al [no slight if u r not mentioned by name]).

w
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
wanderer
*** Veteran
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:33 am
Location: anytown, usa

Post by wanderer »

andrew -

has your query been answered to your satisfaction in a demonstrably open-minded manner?
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
wanderer
*** Veteran
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:33 am
Location: anytown, usa

Post by wanderer »

There is a flaw in your logic. The site does not belong to the gentleman you are referring to here. It belongs to the community that congregates there. If you congregate there, it belongs to you!

i understand that, according to "the rules," this is true, still tmf won't interpret/enforce that approach. 7700 posts by ykw later, several grand by ykwII, etc. and it's defacto ykw's bd. besides, 90% of my buddies have left.

i's happy here. if i had more thumbs, es...:wink:

wanderer
regards,

wanderer

The field has eyes / the wood has ears / I will see / be silent and hear
hocus
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Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2002 12:56 am

Post by hocus »

i's happy here. if i had more thumbs, es...

You should be happy here. It's a great place to share information on how to retire early and achieve financial independence.

ElSupremo saved my neck by forming this place at the time he did. On Monday, Nov. 25, I ran out of poker chips over at the other place. That was the day the GritsGuriu proposal fell though. What was I going to do, come up with something to top the "revocation" post? Come on.

But on the morning of Tuesday, Nov. 26, there was a post by PeteyPerson on this new board, and a whole host of new possibilities opened up for me. I owe more to ElSupremo than anyone else posting on this board.

That doesn't mean that I am not going to make a pitch to get some of you to post from time to time at the REHP board. I'll do that at some future date. It's in the interest of anyone trying to learn about Retire Early strategies for that board to again become a valuable resource on the subject matter.

Helping out over there doesn't take anything away from what you do here. You don't have to choose Board A or Board B. The best choice for both communities is Board A and Board B.

I understand that, according to "the rules," this is true, still tmf won't interpret/enforce that approach.

I'm not so sure. What Motley Fool has told me is that their concern is with "board culture." There are lots of signs that the board culture over there is support for open debate on safe withdrawal rates. There are the 80 recs for the "Coin Toss" and "My Plan" posts. More recently, there was the 47 recs for the CrazyLegs883 post saying, Why not just allow hocus to have his say without disrupting each of his threads on this matter? There was the 24 recs for the "revocation" post, and the 14 for the Community Rules post, and the 18 for the "New Board to Prepare FAQ on SWRs" post. The "Ridicule Rant" post by JWR1945 from some time back got over 40 recs. A large segment of the community over there wants to hear both sides of the story, they have expressed that desire over and over again.

The problem, from a board culture standpoint, is that the group that wants to hear both sides has been intimidated by the tactics practiced by the segment that does not want both sides of the story to be voiced. Your post from last night showing what someone over there said about FoolMeOnce is a good example of the dynamic at play. There was no basis for that claim, we all can see that. The point was to show people what happens to those who step out of line. That post sent a message, and the posts directed at you sent a message, and the posts directed at me sent a message.

The whole house of cards tumbles if people do not respond to the intimidation tactics. You note that "90 percent of my buddies have left." True enough. What if they hadn't left? What if, when GolfWayMore put up his post against FoolMeOnce, there were eight posts that followed that said "those are completely unfounded assertions, and the TMF rules require that you discuss issues rather than engage in personal attacks, so please do so."

He would have to do it. He would have no choice. In the event he didn't listen to what the community asked him to do, we could go to Motley Fool and tell them that the board culture there is opposed to those sorts of tactics, and ask them to take action on the matter.

It all depends on the segment of the community that wants both sides of the story being aired making a decision to ask those who are violating the posting rules to knock it off and allow the rest of us to use the resource for the purpose for which it was created.

I believe that the first step in making that happen is giving people in the middle group the information they need to understand this stuff better than they do today (through no fault of their own). That's what the FAQ debate that begins on January 13 is all about. Once people understand the issues well enough to see what they stand to gain by having a debate on SWRs go forward at the other board, I am going to ask that group to go back to the old board with me and ask that that board too adopt a FAQ stating the realities of SWRs as we know them today. I believe that will fly.

And, if it doesn't, something else will. It simply is not a credible position to take to say "I have created a public discussion board on early retirement, but I will not permit the realities of safe withdrawal rates to be discussed there." That position cannot stand long-term, whether it's me that causes it to fall or someone else. Since it's going to fall anyway, I don't see why we shouldn't do what we can to make it fall sooner rather than later.

Everyone benefits from any action taken to cause that position to fall. That includes intercst, by the way. He will be far better off when the board community tells him that he is wrong to block debate in this way. He will learn more about SWRs, and he will be in a better position to offer informed advice in the future as a result. This is a pro-intercst effort, whether all see it that way today or not. It really is.

And I do still have hopes of someday getting intercst to write up a blurb for the back cover of my book. He and I are involved in the same life project, sharing information on how to retire early. What possible good does it do anyone for there to be friction between us or for us to post on different boards. We should be working together on this stuff. That will happen as soon as I can persuade some in the middle to see the long-term benefits of that approach.
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ElSupremo
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Post by ElSupremo »

Greetings wanderer :)
i's happy here. if i had more thumbs


All this came about in no small part because of the efforts of yourself and the other regulars. Without your help I'd be sitting here with only ataloss and a few of my old indexing buddies. How much of THAT do you think I could take!:wink: You folks have to stop being so modest! 8)
"The best things in life are FREE!"

www.nofeeboards.com
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FMO
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Post by FMO »

hocus writes:

The problem, from a board culture standpoint, is that the group that wants to hear both sides has been intimidated by the tactics practiced by the segment that does not want both sides of the story to be voiced. Your post from last night showing what someone over there said about FoolMeOnce is a good example of the dynamic at play. There was no basis for that claim, we all can see that. The point was to show people what happens to those who step out of line. That post sent a message, and the posts directed at you sent a message, and the posts directed at me sent a message.

The way things are supposed to work at the REHP Board: Someone posts and opinion you disagree with. Launch personal attack at the individual. Individual leaves. Status quo is preserved.

Using this model for communications, it is understandable why GWM is hopelessly confused about why I would leave despite not having been personally attacked. Surely an experienced long-time poster such as myself, would know enough about the REHP board culture to realize that the personal attack comes first and the departure second. The process seems to have been reversed in my case. It appears to be beyond the comprehension of the board that someone would want to leave because of a board culture that sanctions personal attacks upon anyone as a debating technique. It was this, combined with the proliferation of debating tactics which relied on deception, obfuscation and logical fallacies, which ultimately led to my departure.

It is curious that I don't recall ever having a substantive disagreement with GWM. It is curiouser still that even though GWM has proclaimed himself the most pro-real estate poster on the REHP board, that he rarely posts original content on the subject.

GWM has stated that despite my inexperience and propensity to mislead, that he still respects me personally. I find it ironic that I have the utmost respect for GWM's experience and real estate knowledge, but no longer respect him personally since he now conforms to and participates in a board culture which I abhor.
FMO

"The mark of a successful man is spending an entire day on the bank of a river without feeling guilty about it."
hocus
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Post by hocus »

I find it ironic that I have the utmost respect for GWM's experience and real estate knowledge, but no longer respect him personally since he now conforms to and participates in a board culture which I abhor.

I applaud you for saying this so clearly, FMO. I know from my long experience at the REHP board that there are many at that board who feel the same way. They have not been too vocal yet because they do not feel comfortable speaking out until they are sure that they know all the facts. That's an understandable inclination. But I think that there are going to be a good number of statements along the lines of the one you offered above when the group I refer to as middle-ground posters begins to get a firmer grasp on this stuff.

It looks very bad for that board when all you take into account are the posted messages. But looks are deceiving. If you study the board dynamics in depth, you come up with a very different set of perceptions about what is going on there and where the board is likely to be headed in the future.
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